Archive for the 'Leadership Stuff' Category

15 Ways to Handicap a Potential Missionary in Your Local Church

Saturday, September 2nd, 2006


1. Force them to go through a “missions preparation” program which effectively weeds out the entrepreneurs.
2. Don’t consult with anyone who has ever lived with cross-cultural realities when you design your requirements for those who will be sent.
3. Choose people to oversee your mission efforts who have no experience or understanding of cross-cultural realities.
4. Make missions a “program” instead of seeking to make your church missional.
5. Decide to support missionaries 100% of their budget. It creates marvelous dependency.
6. Have standards that Mother Teresa or the Apostle Paul incarnate couldn’t meet.
7. Require seminary.
8. Make sure they have taught 5th grade Sunday School class as a pre-requisite which demonstrates loyalty to the church.
9. Imbue an ecclesiology that believes the sending church is supreme and missionary entities are appendages.
10. Ignore the concept of leverage and only support “front line” workers.
11. Adopt a trendy and unsophisticated view of missions that only supports those going to unreached people groups.
12. Placate the control freaks and don’t let potential missionaries raise money from anyone in the church.
13. Limit whom they can minister with to your own denominational or creedal group. Perish the thought that they would be contaminated by touching those who may be their neighbors in heaven.
14. Encourage “storehouse giving” so that all their money must come through the church.
15. Convince your congregation that short-term, tantalizing overseas experiences are most effective so that there is little money, prayer or commitment left for the few willing to commit their lives to longer term, incarnational, sacrificial service

Get Off the Dead Horse

Friday, September 1st, 2006


“If the horse you’re riding dies, get off. “

Seems simple enough. When something doesn’t work, find a better way. Unfortunately in the religious world, being ruthlessly pragmatic is not a often embraced value. Instead, we often choose from an array of other alternatives which include:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Trying a new bit or bridle.
3. Switching riders.
4. Moving the horse to a new location.
5. Riding the horse for longer periods of time.
6. Saying things like, “this is the way we’ve always ridden this horse”.
7. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
8. Arranging to visit other sites where they ride dead horses more efficiently.
9. Increasing the standards for riding dead horses.
10. Creating a tests for measuring riding ability.
11. Comparing how we’re riding now with how we did ten or twenty years ago.
12. Complaining about the state of horses these days.
13. Coming up with new styles of riding.
14. Tightening the cinch.
15. Blaming the horse’s parents. The problem is often in the breeding.

Hard Leadership

Wednesday, August 30th, 2006


“We will either find a way or make one.” – Hannibal crossing the Alps

Bobby Clinton writes:

“I was quite impressed with Hannibal’s 18 year campaign against Rome. I have no problem imagining him saying the above quote. His crossing the Alps was just such a “making a way.” There are times in our pilgrimage for soft leadership, “finding a way” (consensus, relational, getting ownership, etc.) and then there are times for hard leadership (deciding and convincing, forceful) when we must “make a way.”

Interesting that “soft leadership” is the present mode in vogue in the West. Yet as Bobby notes, that’s not the only way that effective leadership is always exercised. We see both hard and soft throughout history and both are certainly evident throughout the biblical record. While leavened by the tether of scripture, the type of leadership demanded in any given setting is highly situational and depends on what is needed in the context.

In my own experience, when I have been compelled to lead “hard,” it has often come with a price particularly when exercised among independent self-sufficient people in my own culture. I have had to learn over the years to be at peace when opposition or criticism may arise and realize that often, it may be the result of poor followership and not necessarily because I have been compelled to lead with decisiveness and “make a way.”

Five Essentials for Effective Leadership

Monday, August 28th, 2006


Warren Bennis, one of the most respected authors on the subject of leadership and founder of The Leadership Institute at USC, writes that the crisis of leadership in our institutions and governments is in many ways the most urgent and dangerous threat facing the world today because “it is insufficiently recognized and little understood.” Drawing on 40 years of studying leadership, Bennis says that effective leaders share five characteristics. They have:

1. A strong sense of purpose, a passion, a conviction, a sense of wanting to do something important to make a difference.
2. Are capable of developing and sustaining deep and trusting relationships. They seem to be constant, caring, and authentic with other people.
3. Are purveyors of hope and have positive illusions about reality.
4. Have a balance in their lives between work, power, and family or outside activities. They do not tie up all of their self-esteem in their position.
5. Demonstrate a bias toward action and while not reckless, they do not resist taking risks.

Billy Graham in Twilight

Sunday, August 27th, 2006

Billy Graham

No one person in the Protestant world comes as close as Billy Graham does to being a unifying, patriarchal figure. Having personally spoken in front of more people than any other individual in history, Graham’s decades of ministry around the globe have been marked by humility, integrity, and the clear anointing of God.

Now at age 87, he is experiencing what leadership emergence theory calls “afterglow” and NEWSWEEK magazine labeled “In Twilight” in its August 14th, 2006 cover story. The article is well worth the price of the magazine or can accessed free at

There is much that can be learned from a leader, such as this, who is finishing well. Nestled in the NEWSWEEK article are many memorable quotes, among them:

“All my life I’ve been taught how to die, but no one ever taught me how to grow old…. The older I get, the more important the eternal becomes to me personally.”

The interviewer goes on to comment:
“Graham now prizes peace. He is a man of unwavering faith who refuses to be judgmental …a resolute Christian who declines to render absolute verdicts about who will get into heaven and who will not; a man concerned about traditional morality … who will not be dragged into what he calls the “hot-button issues” of the hour. Graham’s tranquil voice, though growing fainter, has rarely been more relevant.”

Developmental Stages

Friday, August 25th, 2006

Tree Sillouetts
Describing developmental stages for those who lead, J. Robert Clinton writes:

1) Younger, less experienced people in leadership, need the focus of spiritual formation in their lives, in whatever studies or experiences they are involved in,
2) More experienced people need ministry formation in what they are studying and experiencing.
3) Older more experience people need strategic formation at this point in their lives.

Spiritual formation is the shaping activity in a leader’s life which is directed toward instilling godly character and developing inner life.

Ministerial formation is the shaping activity in a leader’s life which is directed toward instilling leadership skills, leadership experience, and developing giftedness for ministry.

Strategic formation is the shaping activity in a leader’s life which is directed toward having that leader reach full potential and achieve a God-given destiny.

In real life, these formations are mixed up, happen simultaneously and are sometimes overlapping. But for the purpose of definition they can be separately identified. And when studying the early formation of a leader, the middle formation of a leader and the latter formation of a leader the observations above hold in general; most spiritual formation occurs early-on; most ministerial formation develops over the first several years of ministry; and most strategic formation develops as one matures in ministry and begins to focus on longer term direction.

Clinton on Authenticity

Tuesday, August 22nd, 2006

J. Robert Clinton from his studies in the book of James writes:

“Christian faith which has the ring of authenticity is:

• tested and strengthened by temptation,
• manifested in life style,
• illustrated by control of one’s words,
• is rooted in character with proper underlying motivations, and
• waits for the Lord’s coming with expectant prayer-answering faith.

Authenticity is a dominant trait looked for by “post-modern” people examining Christianity particularly in light of the HIV/Aids pandemic, the millions of kids at risk and the injustices in our world. Does our Christian faith have a ring of authenticity? Is it manifested in a life style that is challenging the great needs our world? In light of these issues, James comes alive in a fresh/new way.”

(Painting is the Apostle James by El Greco, circa 1610-1614, who was known as the first great genius of the Spanish School).

13 Ways to Squash a Leader

Monday, August 21st, 2006

Under The Thumb
Here is short list on how to frustrate, stifle and squash a leader, particularly those with any sense of apostolic gifting:

1. Force them to go to school
2. Give them too much money
3. Tell them all the reasons why something can’t be done.
4. Swamp them with paperwork and administration.
5. Give them people to lead who are excessively needy.
6. Limit their travel and keep them in mono-cultural contexts.
7. Consistently correct them when they are provocative or prophetic in their communication.
8. Make certain any initiative they take must go through multiple steps of approval.
9. Insert “conserve” and “maintain” into all their conversations.
10. Have someone who “gift projects” strong pastoral gifting supervise them.
11. Tell them to stay when they want to go.
12. Make certain they have plenty of rules and policies to live by.
13. Give them a precise, detailed, inflexible job description.

Any suggestions about what could be added to the list?

Lincoln on Leadership

Monday, August 14th, 2006


No figure in American public life has been studied, analyzed and dissected as much as Abraham Lincoln.

While not a new book, Donald Phillips volume, Lincoln on Leadership examines the 16th president in light of his leadership strengths and abilities. Some of the principles Phillips derives from Lincoln’s leadership are:

Advocate a vision and continually reaffirm it
Build strong alliances
Circulate among followers continuously
Search for capable, intelligent assistants
Encourage innovation
Persuade rather than coerce
Influence people through stories and illustrations
Be results oriented

“Lincoln on Leadership: Executive Strategies for Tough Times” (Donald T. Phillips)

Why Missionaries Can Be Irritating

Thursday, July 27th, 2006


C. Peter Wagner in his seminal work on biblical holisim, Church Growth and the Whole Gospel writes:

“Mission structures, at least the better ones, do not have a broad vision. They are single-minded and concentrate on one task. Their narrow vision is part of their very nature, not something to be criticized.

The better mission structure leaders frequently exhibit three characteristics which broader-minded pastors need to understand and appreciate (although at times it is difficult to do so).The better mission structure leaders are:

1. Convinced that their task is the most important task in the kingdom of God
2. Convinced that their particular organization is going about the task better than any other similar organization.
3. Have a low need for people and a high dedication to the task.”

“Church Growth and the Whole Gospel: A Biblical Mandate” (C. Peter Wagner)

Mastery of the Bible

Sunday, July 23rd, 2006

This excerpt is from an email that J. Robert Clinton, professor of leadership at Fuller Seminary, puts out weekly. Bobby’s admonition is worth repeating.


“In my opinion we have only one guarantee for an effective lifetime experience as a leader. We must be people of the Word.

In one of my opening classes I use an illustration, which shows that most leaders who have studied at Bible Colleges and Seminaries in the U.S. actually stop really studying the Bible for their own personal growth and lifetime basis for decision-making between the ages of 30-40. The conclusion that I draw in Having a Ministry That Lasts is:

Effective leaders should have an appropriate, unique, lifelong plan for mastering the Word in order to use it with impact in their ministries.

Few leaders master the Bible without a proactive, deliberate approach, which plans to do so. It does not just accidentally happen. For what I mean by “master,” see my book, Having A Ministry That Lasts.

My studies in the volume Focused Lives (1994) revealed that all of the 8 leaders studied the Bible as a lifelong pursuit:

Simeon (1759-1836)—Strategic Mentor
Gordon (1836-1895)—Missionary Minded Pastor
Brengle (1860-1936)—Public Saint
Morgan (1863-1945)—World Class Bible Teacher
Jaffray (1873-1945)—Missionary Pioneer
McQuilkin (1886-1952)—Bible College Founder
Mears (1890-1963)—Recruiter of Leaders
Maxwell (1895-1984)—Missionary Trainer

All were people of the Word all their lives. While they had their own unique approaches to study of the Bible, they were disciplined in doing so. And they finished well!

Daniel was still studying the Word in his-mid 80s. I [Bobby] have about 15 more years to go to catch-up with him. Do you have some plan for mastering the scriptures over your lifetime? Are you still studying, learning, and growing in the Word of God—whether or not you are preaching or teaching something?”

Logistics and Movements

Saturday, July 22nd, 2006


“Leaders win through logistics. Vision, sure. Strategy, yes. But when you go to war, you need to have both toilet paper and bullets at the right place at the right time. It doesn’t matter how brilliant your vision and strategy are if you can’t get the soldiers, the weapons, the vehicles, the gasoline, the chow or the boots to the right people at the right place at the right time.” – Tom Peters

I see it all the time. People with great ideas and passion. Men and women with incredible vision. The blogging world is full of this type of verbiage. But how do you make it happen? How does one translate ideas into reality?

Great vision, without the resources and the means to carry it out, is only a dream.

The Christian movement is littered with people of magnificent vision who never were able to translate their idealism into action. And the critical issue all too often the acquisition of resources. It’s logistics. As General of the U.S. Army, Omar Bradley of WWII fame bluntly put it:

“Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics.”

The lesson to be learned: Behind every great movement, somewhere lurking in the shadows, is someone with logistical genius.

Competent vs. Spiritual Authority

Friday, July 21st, 2006

St. Michael The Angle

“The leader is rarely – possibly never – the best performer. The best leader is rarely the best pitcher or catcher. The best leader is just what’s advertised: the best leader. Leaders get their kicks from orchestrating the work of others – not from doing it themselves.”

– Management guru, Tom Peters

In my early years of leadership of CRM, I received some stinging criticism that I was “out of touch with the field” and “needed to go back and get my hands dirty doing the same thing as those we were sending around the world to do.”

With my proverbial tail between my legs, I had a chat with Bobby Clinton. In his indomitable wisdom, Bobby helped me to see that leading from a posture of “competent” leadership was quite limited and that I had already outgrown the ability to lead in such a manner. I should not expect (nor should others) that I could minister as competently as the growing number of those whom I led. Their skills, language abilities, and specialized competencies far outstripped mine. I could never keep up. Instead, he suggested I focus on two things:

1. Spiritual authority was the preferred posture that I should grow into where people follow because I have grown in my ability to hear from God and then lead from his perspective.

2. When faced with such criticism, to respond by saying: “You’re exactly right. I can’t do what you do as well. But neither can you do what God has called me to do in my leadership of the whole.”

That was liberating!

Recruiting with Power

Wednesday, May 24th, 2006

Elijah Prophets
J. Robert Clinton writes:

“It is important to note that Jesus demonstrated power ministry as part of his recruiting technique. You must be able to move with power as you challenge people.”

I believe the “power” that Clinton refers to has two aspects:

First, is gifted power. It may emanate from an exhortive or prophetic gift where one can speak with unusual force into a life. Or it may be a gift of knowledge where information is utilized that could only be available through supernatural means. This is what we see in the first chapter of John’s gospel in how Jesus interacts with Nathanael.

Gifted power may also be demonstrated through the types of signs and wonders missiologists refer to as “power encounters” where the power of God directly and overtly confronts the powers of evil. Elijah and the confrontation of the prophets of Baal in I Kings 18 is a example.

Secondly is spiritual authority. Clinton has written much about this. According to him, Effective leaders value spiritual authority as a primary power base…” and “Leaders who dominantly rely upon spiritual authority as the major power base will usually have good followership.” Simply put, spiritual authority results in a leader journeying deeply with God, being able to hear from God, and then acting accordingly.

As Dietrich Bonhoeffer puts it:

“Genuine authority realizes that it can exist only in the service of Him who alone has authority… The Church does not need brilliant personalities but faithful servants of Jesus and the brethren…”

Recruiting from the Fringes

Tuesday, May 23rd, 2006

J. Robert Clinton writes:

“Jesus recruited from the fringes, in terms of leaders who could be shaped, and not from the current religious leadership which had very fixed paradigms.”

This week I spent an evening at a large event that was realted to one of Southern California’s prominent mega-churches. Driving home in silence, I was sobered by the celebrity-satiated scene. Shallow …plastic …superficiality …all are words that seemed to describe the fare. Nothing really bold. Although his name was invoked, his attachment to this venue it was far from the Jesus I see in the context of 1st century Palestine.

That evening was a representation of a contemporary religious establishment in which there appears to be little spiritual authenticity, reality or power. The pool for potential leadership in such a context seems sorely lacking in genuine spiritual authority. It was sad. Very sad.

I have little hope that the leadership of the future will be able to percolate up through such a system. Consequently, we may need to look elsewhere for people who are dissatisfied with the establishment – “on the fringes.” Those are the men and women in whom we need to invest …those on the edge and those willing to go there! God has always used such individuals to shatter the status-quo and bring vitality and health to the Church in every generation.

“One of the most important lessons from history is that the renewal of church always comes from fringes, and we mean always.” – Hirsch and Frost in The Shaping of Things to Come, pg. 194.

Jesus and Leadership Intentionality

Monday, May 22nd, 2006

J. Robert Clinton writes:

“Recruitment refers to the deliberate effort to challenge potential leaders and to engage them in on-going ministry so that they will develop as leaders and move toward the accomplishment of God’s destiny for their lives.”

I see the intentionality Clinton describes as sadly lacking throughout the Christian movement of our day. It is one of the greatest shortcomings in the traditional, institutional church. Regardless of what continent we observe, the leadership gaps are daunting.

In the Western world, the problem persists in new expressions of the church as well. In my exposure with the “emerging church,” this seems particularly true as the movement reacts to the top-down, autocratic, hierarchical models of modernity. But I fear in this reaction, what is lost may be worse than the distortion which has rightly provoked the reaction.

There is no way, if we are faithful to the historical texts, that we can get around the intentionality of Jesus in the cultivation, selection, and development of those who followed him and who were to be the leaders of the movement he left behind. His strategy was elegant and highly intentional. it was not democratic. It was not consensual. It was not egalitarian.

While not mechanistic, Jesus was incredibly deliberate in this pursuit because he knew the future of what he had begun depended upon its outcome. And his “recruiting” to his Kingdom cause was a profoundly spiritual undertaking.

One of the more thorough studies of this theme, overlooked in our time, is Scottish theologian A. B. Bruce’s The Training of the Twelve. First published in 1871, its original extended title – in true 19th century form – was “Passages out of the Gospels Exhibiting the Twelve Disciples of Jesus Under Discipline for the Apostleship.” Nevertheless, for over a hundred years it has been considered one of the major Christian classics of the 19th century.

*Painting is by the Italian master Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio (1573-1610) depicting the resurrected Christ and Thomas the doubting disciple.

Jesus and the Recruitment of Leaders

Sunday, May 21st, 2006

Galileeseaof Edited
J. Robert Clinton, in his commentary on John’s Gospel, states three principals regarding how Jesus was intentional about selecting and recruiting potential leaders for his movement. Clinton writes:

1. Recruitment refers to the deliberate effort to challenge potential leaders and to engage them in on-going ministry so that they will develop as leaders and move toward the accomplishment of God’s destiny for their lives.

2. Jesus recruited from the fringes, in terms of leaders who could be shaped, and not from the current religious leadership which had very fixed paradigms.

3. it is important to note that Jesus demonstrated power ministry as part of his recruiting technique. You must be able to move with power as you challenge people.

*Painting is Jesus and Apostles on the Sea of Galilee by Eugene Delacroix, early 19th century.

Leadership Selection

Friday, May 12th, 2006

Baton Pass

“The skills involved in selecting and training church leaders on the
mission fields of the world are without question the most important skills that apostolically gifted missionaries can take to most fields today.” – C. Peter Wagner (commentary on Acts, p 326).

Wagner highlights a component of ministry that determines the survivability and health of the Christian movement, regardless of setting. While critical and essential, such a function is not flashy. It’s slow, behind the scenes, and often unnoticed. It’s not emotionally gripping and the type of activity at which people throw lots of money. It demands intentionality. It demands priority. Bobby Clinton articulates this as one of the major leadership lessons of the Bible:
“Effective leaders view leadership selection and development as a priority function.”

– J. Robert Clinton

I know of no better way to invest a life for God’s kingdom purposes than in pursuit of ministry that contributes to such strategic results. At its core, that is what CRM is all about. And personally, wherever Patty and I live, wherever we ministry, whatever team we are part of, whatever we do, this particularly ministry focus is what consumes us.

Healthy Community

Wednesday, April 19th, 2006


Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a classic on what authentic Christian community is all about. No volume that I know of captures it better.

However, in the pursuit of the ideal there is much that can take place in personal and group relationships that is unhealthy. At times, the stuff that passes for “community” may actually be enmeshment, enablement, and dysfunctionality.

So how do I know if the community to which I am committed is healthy? Where do I find environments that nurture healty emotional and spiritual relationships? Some questions:

1. Does the context use me or develop me?
2. Can authority be questioned?
3. Is conflict resolved or repressed?
4. Is it an inclusive or exclusive environment?
5. Is an inordinate amount of time required to maintain the community as opposed to ministry outside?
6. What is accomplisihed other than “presence” in the greater society?
7. Is it easy to leave?
8. When we are in over our head with relational pathology, are qualified pros available and accessed, ie, counselors, pshychiatrists, therapists, and spiritual directors?
9. Is leadership accountable?
10. Is diversity embraced or is uniformity enforced?

Difficult People

Wednesday, April 12th, 2006

Lesson #3 is about difficult people. Letting a personnel problem fester makes it more difficult to deal with in the long run. I have been burned more often by being negligent in confronting hard issues with people than by plowing ahead an dealing forthrightly with the unpleasant.

In my experience, dealing with people problems is perhaps the most demanding and emotionally draining aspect of leading others if we are intent on leading as a servant leader. This of course, may depend upon gifts and maturity. However in every facet of leadership, at every level, I see this to be true. People problems take a toil by:

Diverting energy away form the creative, visionizing aspects of a leader’s mission;

Making leaders gun-shy and crippling their willingness to take future risks;

Producing an interesting paralysis in decision-making, somewhat unique to “Christian” communities which are not supposed to have such problems. It becomes much more difficult to deal with people for the same type of incompetence or non-performance that would never be tolerated in others forms of work. Spirituality can become an excuse for enabling destructive behavior.

    Tough Decisions

    Tuesday, April 11th, 2006

    More on leadership lessons:


    #2 – Leadership involves tough decisions particularly when it affects the lives, families careers, and futures of other people. Tough decisions can be faced three ways:

    a) Avoid it.  Don’t do anything and sidestep the tough stuff;
    b) Make the decisions but do not carry them out well …the process is poor.
    c) Make and execute decisions with expedience, skill, and with a sensitivity and care that reflects a genuine love and compassion for all involved.

    Integrity in leadership means doing the right thing regardless of the consequences, the criticism or the pain.


    Monday, April 10th, 2006

    Group - Steve Yellin#15D93C
    Attempting to exercise godly, genuine servant leadership is never easy.

    Last night in reviewing some old journal notes, I came across a list circa 1992 of “Leadership Lessons.” In retrospect what struck me was 1) How accurate these thoughts were in light of almost 15 additional years of experience and 2) How much emotional energy and even pain has been expended over that period in light of these realities. Regardless, they are still worthy of consideration.

    #1. Criticism is tough. Although it comes with the turf for anyone in leadership, it is still painful. It hurts. Obviously, it can be justified but it is most difficult when it is not.

    I found I have two responses to the unjust: a) anger, bitterness and resentment or 2) allowing the criticism to mold character.

    The choice is mine.

    How Not to Grow People Who Can Lead …

    Saturday, April 8th, 2006


    “In my own denomination, theological education has become a part of a bureaucratic system that does not allow the emergence of indigenous leadership from the congregations. We deliberately break that pattern. You can’t be ordained in the congregation where you grew up, discovered your gifts, and move into ministry. This is one of the biggest difference compared to …churches which are seedbeds of leadership development.”

    – Roberta Hestenes, former President, Eastern College.

    Education and Leadership …part 3

    Friday, April 7th, 2006

    Rembrandt02 1 1
    Can relational empowerment and transformation happen in a formal educational setting? Certainly. But that’s not what the system is designed for. Let’s be honest. Antiseptic classrooms are not exactly relational hot houses.

    So if I am not going to find all I need to be developed in such institutional settings, where do I find such relationships where life, and not just knowledge, is transferred? In my experience, three places:

    a. Healthy expressions of the church in its local form (with the emphasis on “healthy” and with an understanding that the “form” can be tremendously diverse)
    b. Vibrant apostolic expressions of the church in its missionary form
    c. Divine contacts, ie., mentors and individuals God brings into my life for just such a purpose.

    The kicker sometimes is whether these relationships are healthy. Unfortunately, transformation can be good or bad. And there are far too many group environments as well as individual relationships, even with good intentions, that are unhealthy and damaging. The relational dysfunctionality out there from enmeshed and spiritually abusive relationships inflicts a lot of pain.

    Education and Leadership …part 2

    Thursday, April 6th, 2006

     Albums V500 Strategerydog Duncecap-1
    I would regret anyone reading my previous post and concluding I was anti-scholarship or anti-intellectual. Rather, I want to be realistic about what role academic pursuits in an institutional setting play in the life of one serious about following Jesus and particularly those who will emerge as leaders.

    “The Academy” does have a place and a definite contribution to make. I am grateful for what it has given to me. But the problem is when we expect it to do something in a life that it is poorly designed to do.

    Just because someone has a seminary degree proves little when it comes to leadership. The degree may only mean that I am smart enough to do the work and rich enough to pay the bill.

    The Western educational model when embraced, as Winter says “uncritically”, has always been conflicted in its relationship to the Christian movement. Does it exist to produce leaders and labor for the movement or does it exist to produce scholars? These are not the same.