Comments on: The 10-40 Excuse http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/ Sam Metcalf's blog about a new generation of leaders for the global church. Tue, 13 May 2008 01:16:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Carl Holmes http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49806 Carl Holmes Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:32:59 +0000 http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49806 I live in Colorado Springs. I have had the hardest time raising support for myself as I endeavor to start a new church because everyone believes that since we are evangelical central that we should have all the money in the world. That is so not true. What we have: 1) 5 churches that have reached "mega" church status with the buildings and staff to go with it. One of them is going to announce, today, that it is going the way of the church you mentioned above, but they are cutting missions almost completely. 2) several hundred smaller churches who are doing the work of God but who can not get money in the door enough to be self sufficient because the top 5 are getting the lions share. 3) People longing to connect in a smaller context one on one with pastors, small groups, and missionaries. They can not because so many are in the top 5 paradigm. I just can not find myself in a "mega" church. I know they do good, but in the end they are to heavy and bureaucratic to answer the move of the holy spirit quickly and nimbly as the needs of the church, and the global missions movement dictate. I live in Colorado Springs. I have had the hardest time raising support for myself as I endeavor to start a new church because everyone believes that since we are evangelical central that we should have all the money in the world. That is so not true. What we have:

1) 5 churches that have reached “mega” church status with the buildings and staff to go with it. One of them is going to announce, today, that it is going the way of the church you mentioned above, but they are cutting missions almost completely.

2) several hundred smaller churches who are doing the work of God but who can not get money in the door enough to be self sufficient because the top 5 are getting the lions share.

3) People longing to connect in a smaller context one on one with pastors, small groups, and missionaries. They can not because so many are in the top 5 paradigm.

I just can not find myself in a “mega” church. I know they do good, but in the end they are to heavy and bureaucratic to answer the move of the holy spirit quickly and nimbly as the needs of the church, and the global missions movement dictate.

]]> By: Gavin Knight http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49674 Gavin Knight Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:28:23 +0000 http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49674 Hi Sam. A very interesting post, and I understand the passion with which you wrote it. It's always bothered me that the 10/40 window also misses out the southern hemisphere completely, where there are plenty of 'fields ripe for harvest' in terms of both spiritual and socio-economic poverty. Regards, Gavin Knight (Susanne Brantley's brother, from Wellington NZ) Hi Sam.

A very interesting post, and I understand the passion with which you wrote it.

It’s always bothered me that the 10/40 window also misses out the southern hemisphere completely, where there are plenty of ‘fields ripe for harvest’ in terms of both spiritual and socio-economic poverty.

Regards, Gavin Knight (Susanne Brantley’s brother, from Wellington NZ)

]]> By: Brian N. http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49410 Brian N. Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:40:28 +0000 http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49410 Thanks Sam. I appreciate your heart for the Kingdom and I share many of the same frustrations as you. Blessings to you and all at CRM who are doing such awesome work! Brian Thanks Sam. I appreciate your heart for the Kingdom and I share many of the same frustrations as you.

Blessings to you and all at CRM who are doing such awesome work!

Brian

]]> By: Sam http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49408 Sam Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:29:04 +0000 http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49408 <p>Hey Brian, </p> <p>Good to hear from you. A couple of thoughts in return: </p> <p>1. I am undoubtedly blowing off some steam and frustration. It is disheartening to see good people hurt. </p> <p>2. There certainly may be churches that cut mission AND pastoral salaries. But I have yet to see it. </p> <p>3. I want to be clear that I am not making the local church out to be "evil," but I am quite pointed in my criticism of these practices within such institutional settings, particularly as I have experienced and observed such trends in mega-churches. I am not anti-local church by any means, but as you know the local church is much broader, more diverse and complex than the institutional, traditional structures that predominate in the West and practices like this that hurt God's kingdom purposes. </p> <p>The church in its local form is certainly one of the expressions of the body of Christ, and I am obligated to love it as Jesus does. But there is nothing sacrosanct about the forms, traditions, and cultural baggage that gets in the way of the bride of Christ living up to its calling. </p> <p>4. Sometime over a cup of coffee I'll be happy to share with you my personal experience and commitment over many years in local churches and church planting settings. I don't believe I am naive about what life and ministry looks like on that side of the ecclesiastical equation.</p>

Hey Brian,

Good to hear from you. A couple of thoughts in return:

1. I am undoubtedly blowing off some steam and frustration. It is disheartening to see good people hurt.

2. There certainly may be churches that cut mission AND pastoral salaries. But I have yet to see it.

3. I want to be clear that I am not making the local church out to be “evil,” but I am quite pointed in my criticism of these practices within such institutional settings, particularly as I have experienced and observed such trends in mega-churches. I am not anti-local church by any means, but as you know the local church is much broader, more diverse and complex than the institutional, traditional structures that predominate in the West and practices like this that hurt God’s kingdom purposes.

The church in its local form is certainly one of the expressions of the body of Christ, and I am obligated to love it as Jesus does. But there is nothing sacrosanct about the forms, traditions, and cultural baggage that gets in the way of the bride of Christ living up to its calling.

4. Sometime over a cup of coffee I’ll be happy to share with you my personal experience and commitment over many years in local churches and church planting settings. I don’t believe I am naive about what life and ministry looks like on that side of the ecclesiastical equation.

]]> By: Brian N. http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49390 Brian N. Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:10:50 +0000 http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49390 Sam, I have also been on the receiving end of Dear John letters from missions committees. It's a bummer, big time! But your generalizations about the institutional church and cutting missions budgets but not pastoral salaries is simply overstated. It feels a bit like you are blowing off steam because of your frustration, but I'm on the other side of the local church discussion now. Not ALL churches cut missions and not pastoral salaries. I agree that the massive building programs churches undertake are crazy. I inherited one, so I know. Nonetheless, I think you might have made the local church into this evil thing. But it's not. Maybe it would be an idea for you to do an interim pastoral position at a church somewhere? Hang out in the midst of the local church mess for 6 months or so? Just a thought. Regards, Brian Sam,
I have also been on the receiving end of Dear John letters from missions committees. It’s a bummer, big time! But your generalizations about the institutional church and cutting missions budgets but not pastoral salaries is simply overstated. It feels a bit like you are blowing off steam because of your frustration, but I’m on the other side of the local church discussion now. Not ALL churches cut missions and not pastoral salaries.

I agree that the massive building programs churches undertake are crazy. I inherited one, so I know. Nonetheless, I think you might have made the local church into this evil thing. But it’s not.

Maybe it would be an idea for you to do an interim pastoral position at a church somewhere? Hang out in the midst of the local church mess for 6 months or so? Just a thought.

Regards,

Brian

]]> By: Mike Zook http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49377 Mike Zook Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:28:29 +0000 http://www.undertheiceberg.com/2008/03/26/the-10-40-excuse/#comment-49377 Great Post Sam. As my wife and I prayerfully consider missions in North America this is a sobering reminder of the limited view contemporary churches have on apostolic-missional ministry focus. It is also a reminder to not put our trust and hope in man's (the mission pastor or head of the mission board) ability to sustain our needs as we answer the calling on our lives, but to put our complete trust and faith in our Lord Jesus. Great Post Sam. As my wife and I prayerfully consider missions in North America this is a sobering reminder of the limited view contemporary churches have on apostolic-missional ministry focus. It is also a reminder to not put our trust and hope in man’s (the mission pastor or head of the mission board) ability to sustain our needs as we answer the calling on our lives, but to put our complete trust and faith in our Lord Jesus.

]]>